The Dan Inosanto Interview III
Interview Conducted By Steve Grantham

Steve Grantham - Welcome back to Atlanta. You've been coming here for a long time. Do you remember the first time you came to Atlanta?
Guro Dan Inosanto - I believe it was 1981.

SG - Was that when you met Sifu Fong?
DI - I met Sifu Francis working on the picture with Burt Reynolds, Sharkey's Machine. We've been associating with each other since then.

SG - 18 years. Wow, that's a long time! Sifu Fong gives you a lot of credit for helping him see how his Wing Chun can give him insights into other arts. Are there any instructors, aside from Bruce Lee, that helped you do the same thing?
DI - I would say, Professor Wally Jay, would be one. Dr. Maung Gyi would be another one. I think Ajarn Chai, Johnny LaCosta, Illustrisimo, Largusa, Villabraile, people like that. There are many people who have influenced me, both in the Martial Arts and outside the Martial Arts.

SG- Sifu, sometimes when describing some of the principles at a seminar, you go outside the Martial Arts, to the sports arenas, sports figures and coaches that you've had to help make your points.
DI - Yes, a lot of time I use them so they can see maybe in another field to help them understand, to get a reference point. I'm sure everybody's played baseball before, or football, basketball. The basic thing I'm trying to do is give an example so they can relate it to something they already have experience with.

SG - You used to talk about Master Johnny LaCosta, and how he would send you out to meet other instructors.
DI - First of all, he was close to the family. Secondly, he was really great, what I would consider a great thinker. And what I liked about him was that he was so open-minded. He'd say "Go, you should study under this person too. He has something." This was new to me. Most people I studied with told me to study with them only. ( Laughing). Not look anywhere else. He (LaCosta) taught me you have to make the system work for you. I like his methods, that he sent me out to different people.

SG - In the sixties, when you were doing your research and studying, there wasn't a lot of cross training. Did you run into problems with that?
DI - Oh yes. I still did it on my own, because I don't think the natural curiosity of people should be suppressed. I think people should be able to explore where their interests are; you shouldn't tell them that Far East Asian History, for example is where it's at, they should be free to explore any area. That's what fascinated me about the Martial Arts. There are so many different ways that you can approach the problem.

SG - Master LaCosta is not well as well known as some of the other Masters, such as Villabraile, or Illustrisimo, because he doesn't seem to have people out there really pushing his name as much. From conversations with Damon Caro at your Academy, Master LaCosta sounds like a very interesting man. I understand he trained some in the Southern Philippines?
DI - He took a lot of training in the Southern Philippines. He was a Christian from the Central Philippines, but he has a Muslim name, studied in the Southern Philippines. He was accepted by the Moros. He could speak all the Muslim dialects. That broke the language barrier for him, because there are so many dialects in the Philippines.

SG - You've mentioned that your father (Sebastian Inosanto) had some responsibilities at the Filipino camps around Stockton as you were growing up, and that the Filipinos from different regions wouldn't share information with each other.
DI - In the beginning, my dad had these work camps, and he couldn't put Tagalogs, and Illocano's and Visayan's together in the same camp. He could mix some of the regions, Illocanos with Pampangoans, East Visayans with West Visayans.

SG - So he mixed by Northern, Central, and Southern regions?
DI - Yes, but a lot of that broke up after WWII. Everyone seemed to get along better. There was a kind of rivalry, but it sort of disappeared after WWII. If WWII did anything, it truly united the Philippines.

SG - Because of the Japanese Occupation?
DI - Yes. Now, there's no animosity towards the Japanese, but at the time, that was a pretty big thing.

SG - Sifu, could you explain, for the people who are not familiar with your system, how you do the ranking in your organization?
DI - I like them to study for at least 3 years before I'll accept them for what I call Apprentice Instructors, and usually they spend a total of about 5 years as an Apprentice, then about 5 years as an Associate Instructor, if they make it all the way through. I don't give Full Instructor to everybody. I think in the last 20 years I might have given 12 or 14 outside the state of California. Just 6 years ago, I only had about 4. They're very rare. I have a lot of Associate Instructors. I have that both for the Jun Fan program, and I have it for the Kali program. And the Majapahit program, I go 3 years for instructorship, and then Level 1, 2, 3, 4,5,6, & 7. I have 7 levels of instructorship in Majapahit.

SG - Is that the Maphilindo?
DI - Maphilindo Majapahit.

SG - I know you're constantly evolving as a Martial Artist. Do you think you are evolving as a teacher? How have you changed in the last 20 years?
DI - You make a lot of mistakes when you teach, and so you try to correct them. I think you do that in regular school teaching as well. You try to better your program. I made a lot of mistakes that I had to change. I'm not too good politically. Sometimes there's a lot of jealousy between the upper echelon students, and I haven't found the answer to that. But as far as teaching methodology, definitely I think I've improved the quality of teaching, the way I taught in the 70's, as opposed to the 80's and the 90's. And then if I make an error, I'll go back and correct it. Maybe I'll throw away something in the 70's that I might bring back in the year 2000. Trying to upgrade my teaching.

SG - You're constantly testing and reevaluating your methods.
DI - You're constantly adding and taking out, adding tactics, and modifying them. I like to field test all the techniques I've been taught, to see how much validity it has in the arena of combat.

SG - Do you feel that the further we get away from the "battle tested" Kali, like the Kali of WWII, that we tend to get more flowery?
DI - It can. I think every system learns that. But I think they can separate it. Like we have demonstration technique, which is different from tournament technique, which is different from what we call Martial Arts science technique, which you might use for the military. Usually, by the time a person has 5 years with me, he kind of knows what to show on demonstration, how to fight within the arena of sport, and how to fight in the arena of military science. It's very good military science. I like to think it hasn't lost any combat efficiency, because the drills were handed down through the centuries of taking out what was bad, adding what was good, so the drills are very close to combat. All you have to do is put the gear on, put the armor on, and it's there. It doesn't have forms like a lot other system, but the Kali is right down to "how do we defend against this angle, how do we defend against this angle."

SG - How do you control the quality of the instructors you certify, once you given them certification? How do you maintain a high level of quality?
DI - It's subjective, a lot of it, that plus some objective criteria. There might be some that are not too good at the historical part of it, or the terminology, but they can do the art, and they can teach it correctly. I get a constant reevaluation, just by watching them. You can learn a lot just by watching other people's students. Like Terry Gibson, as an example. You know he's doing a good job. I usually go there twice a year, and they usually have jumped up level each time. Therefore you can tell by the quality of student and how they move.

SG - You always encourage your instructors to create their own curriculum.
DI - Yes, I think that's really necessary. I say this is what I teach. If I teach 20 things, you can put them in any order. You can teach 10 things out of the 20. Or you can teach 18. I'm just using the number 20 as an example, but you understand what I mean?

SG - Yes sir.
DI - You want to teach what you feel comfortable with, what you're proficient at. Some people put Sinawalli as an advanced technique in their curriculum, so they don't teach Sinawalli until they reach a certain rank. And other systems, like Burt Richardson, they teach Sinawalli on the first day. I let them organize it how they like, because they feel comfortable. I remember as a beginning teacher in public school teaching, I always felt comfortable teaching material that I knew. Once we got to a chapter that I wasn't knowledgeable enough about, I didn't feel too comfortable. So I think, when they teach, they should be comfortable. I feel that teaching is the highest form of learning. Socrates said that. When you teach others, you in turn teach yourself.

SG - But Sifu, when you teach, you teach from the same curriculum you were given?
DI - I'm constantly adjusting it. If I don't like the finished product, I'll change it again. I teach 3 ranges in most of the systems. Long range, middle range, close quarter. Standing, squatting, kneeling, and lying down, regardless of the weapon. I think you should be educated in different areas like that. For me, I think the cross training is the way to go. I like this, because it enables me to understand. I had the opportunity to train Filipino weaponry, the opportunity to train Indonesian weaponry, the opportunity to train Thai weaponry, Burmese weaponry, and I've trained in European weaponry. Just to see them side-by-side. You know, I think everybody's analysis will be different. Combat is really by man, not by nationality, although some nationalities have developed it a little bit further than others; they've organized it, researched it.

SG - You've started incorporating light sparring in your seminars?
DI - Yeah, I didn't like the sparring in the beginning because some people would lose their temper, and then the atmosphere wasn't good. I like the play sparring, it's very light, because they're going to learn. We call hubad a form of play. Puno sumbrada a form of play. Light sparring is a form of play. Because we know some people can take two or three hits and still survive, still come with one or two big wins and still might win the match. I think it's necessary. I've found out from my own training that it's necessary to lightly, safely play with each other so we can learn. We have a saying in the Philippines that means "Play so that you can learn."

SG - Last month, when Jean Jacques Machado was here, he commented on what a dedicated student you are in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. He says you rarely miss class. You also take many private lessons in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Can you give me a ball park guess on how many lessons you've taken up to now?
DI - With the Machados? I can give you closer than a ball park, I can give you exactly what I have; one thousand, one hundred and seventy private lessons under the Machados, as of last Thursday. I log all my lessons.

SG - Wow. And you did most of those with Rigan?
DI - I have that logged too (laughing). I think Rigan is well over 500. I train with Rigan, I train with Jean Jacques, I train with John, and I train with Roger. I do 2 lessons a week with Roger Machado. Two lessons a week with Renato Marga, whose one of top black belts of the Machados. 97, 98 Pan Am champion. I do 4 or 5 with Rigan, depending on whether I'm flying out early Friday morning or late Friday afternoon. I need to do it, because right now, if I don't stay in shape, I get out of shape faster. For me, it's very necessary, because you get out of shape faster as you get older. If I don't do it, it will be bad for me on seminars. I won't be able to present the art. I love the Machado brothers, because they get along.

SG - Jean Jacques had mentioned that when he was here.
DI - They don't fight like a lot of brothers in the Martial Arts. They support each other. And they're very talented. I like to train once a week with Yori Nakamura in Shoot, cause that sort of balances it out. I do my own Muay Thai training. I teach twice a week Muay Thai. When I demonstrate, I'm also getting in shape, too. And then I go on seminars, and depending on who I'm with, they might even train me, which is kind of nice. Erik's (Paulson) been very great, sometimes we go on a seminar and he'll roll around with me. We do a mixture of kickboxing/Muay Thai. He knows I have to stay in shape. The roles have changed (laughing), where he becomes my trainer, and I become his student. He makes me work, which is really good. I have a tendency to be lackadaisical and even a little bit lazy sometimes.

SG - Really? (Disbelieving)
DI - Sometimes I need a guy yelling at me, pushing me.

SG - You are always researching new arts. What arts are you currently focusing on?
DI - Because of my relationship with Ajarn Chai, I'm trying to really get down the Krabi Krabong. He's given me the opportunity to go to Thailand and train under some really good instructors. I try to focus on that. I also focus a lot on Bando and I find it interesting, because Bando is kind of a Burmese, Indian, Chinese, and Tibetan Martial Art. Burma is a neighboring country that the Thai's fought a lot. I like to see how they teach the dar, the two swords, and what distinguishes them from the Thais. The dar's are a little bit longer than the Thai's, because when the Chinese and Mongolians came across the border, they were on horseback. It's a little bit longer sword, so you have to get used to it. I find that fascinating, historically.

SG - I know you're the vice president of the Thai Boxing Association of the United States under Ajarn Chai. How did you meet Ajarn Chai?
DI - I had always wanted to train Thai Boxing, and in 1975, I had a person who trained Jun Fan with me. He taught me a little of the Thai sword and Muay Thai. I met Ajarn Chai in 1978 through one of my students. I asked him to give a workshop in my school. I really got to like it, it got me back in shape. I told my mother I was going to take a year off of school, because I couldn't get down to this area where he had his school, in Pomona. She thought it was for graduate work (laughing), she wanted to know how many hours' credit you get for Muay Thai. She was kind of upset. But I took from February to about July off from school so I could get down to Ajarn Chai's school early enough so I could train Muay Thai with him. And then I sort of followed him, up to know, I guess (laughing). I'm still following him to the Thai camp (in Oregon).

SG - You used to tell a story about Ajarn Chai with the fly on the bag? Could you share that with us?
DI - I think this was in 1980. I was surprised, because a fly had landed on the heavy bag, then he moved me to the side and round kicked and killed the fly on the heavy bag (laughing). I said, "Wow, that's really fast! How do you do that? I can't even do it with a fly swatter." He said, "You have to do it when the legs start going like this (fingers waving in front of his face), you've got to kick it." (Laughter) Usually, the one I tell is about the bee.

SG - Which one is that?
DI - There was bee flying around; this was at the Smoky Mountain camp, up in North Carolina, and everyone was moving away from this bee, and Ajarn Chai was talking and he elbowed the bee and the bee went like this (finger spiraling to the ground). And he just squashed it, and he kept on talking. I've seen him do that twice. I saw him do it on the bus, too. That's the story I usually tell.

SG - So you've known him a long time.
DI - Yes, when I was learning with him out of his backyard, he only had 4 people with him. He had Reggie, who was a champion. He had Mike Goldberg who was a champ. He had Donnie, and he had Rick Hernadez. Those are the people he taught in his home. They were mainly fighters. I was in there to learn the art.

SG - Last question Sifu. What qualities do you look for in your students?
DI - I like them to be loyal, hard working, be able to get along with each other. I think that's very important. Honesty, character... character I think is really important. If you follow the boy scout motto: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, I think you pretty much have what you look for in your students. Then you yourself have to be able to do that too, because I think we all fall short sometimes of our goal, so we can't complain when the student sometimes goes off the beaten track. You're always going to have one or two that stray. My mother told me one time, "Dan, even Jesus had one out of the 12 disciples that let him down, and you're not Jesus!" (Laughing). I always remembered that. Character, I think is the word I want. I think if they have character that's all you can ask.

SG - You try to set a good example for your students?
DI - I try, but you know, because we're human, we make a lot of errors. I've made a lot of errors, you know, both in public education and Martial Arts (chuckle), and many times, people have to point that out to you. Something my wife pointed out was that I was too soft. She says, "You don't expect of your students what you expect of yourself. And you spoil some of your students rotten." And I thought, no, she's wrong. (Laugh) But then I had to agree that she's right, but I didn't want to admit it (laugh).

SG - Sometimes it's easier for an objective person to see it from a different angle.
DI - Yes, it's easier sometimes. You can make a lot of errors, and I made a lot of errors, and I try to correct it and go on with my life.

SG - Sifu, you rarely hear anyone say anything bad about you, which is extremely unusual today. You have a lot of students that have a lot of respect for you. I want to thank you for spending the time talking to me tonight. Again welcome back to Atlanta, it's great to see you again.