The Gary Cagaanan Interview
Interview conducted by Roy Cullen

At 50 years of age, Gary Cagaanan is one of JKD’s hidden heroes. An original Oakland student, Gary has spent his life in Oakland and is in his final years as a San Francisco Police Department Lieutenant. Gary has specialized in several areas of police work, which brought him into contact with the rougher side of a tough neighborhood, including gang warfare, and teaching firearms and defensive tactics. In addition to his love of Jeet Kune Do, Gary also earned the rank of instructor under the legendary escrima master, Sonny Umpad.

What was your first contact with martial arts?
GC: My first formal contact with the martial arts was in Kajukenbo under Sifu Al Dacascos, who in his own right is a tremendous martial artist. No doubt I would have continued training under him, but at a young age I didn't have the means to follow him as he changed school locations. Still, it was a privilege to begin formal training under him, and I consider myself very fortunate for having done so. I am very proud of my Kajukenbo roots.

How did you become aware of Bruce and Jimmy's school?
GC: That’s an interesting story. I knew that Bruce had a school somewhere in Oakland. Knowing the exact location was another story, since it was noncommercial. Unless you had some "inside" info, it was tough to trace.
Anyway, I was in a high school biology class when I sat next to a fellow student who was doodling on a note pad. I kind of glanced over to see what he was sketching, and to my surprise, he was sketching Bruce's/Jimmy's kicking dummy that I'd seen photos of in a martial arts magazine. I asked him if he studied martial arts and, if so, where? He replied that he studied with Jimmy Lee. I was stunned. So I tested him with a battery of questions, and he seemed to have all the right answers. This fellow turned out to be Howard Williams.
After class, we went around behind the school building, and he showed me what JKD was all about. I was totally blown away by Howard. The effectiveness, the power, the simplicity, the directness, the non-classical approach, the likes of which I'd never seen before. Although Howard was probably 17-years-old at the time, he had a way of explaining, demonstrating and teaching that was beyond his years. As far as his skill level was concerned, there was no doubt in my mind that he could probably beat the hell out of most grown men. So my initial introduction to JKD was through Howard. We trained everywhere and anywhere, in between classes, after school, on weekends, in backyards, garages, driveways, schoolyards, etc.

Howard has a reputation as being a strong fighter and someone who was confident to put JKD to the test. Did you ever see any of his confrontations?
GC: I never saw any of Howard's exploits, but I heard about them. I can tell you one thing: Howard Williams was (and still is) one bad dude. Like I said, he was like a smaller version of Mike Tyson. He had that rare combination of speed, power and flexibility, plus great cat-like reflexes. He was fun to watch and an inspiration as well.

How did what Howard showed differ from what you had previously studied?
GC: What Howard Williams showed me greatly differed from the Kajukenbo that I had been studying. Kajukenbo, as you're probably familiar, is a combination of the traditional arts of karate, judo, kenpo and Chinese boxing. What Howard demonstrated was very non-traditional movements. What was strikingly different was the economy of movement of JKD, the western-style boxing stance (southpaw or strong foot forward vs. wide, strong horsestances), the interceptive aspect of JKD, and the trapping. Eventually, I made my way to Jimmy's home, and was accepted as a student of the Oakland branch.

Can you recall the first meeting you had with James Lee?
GC: I'll never forget my first meeting with Jimmy. After Howard revealed to me where Jimmy's school was located, he, at the same time, encouraged me to go there and sign up to train. He did forewarn me, however, that Jimmy didn't accept just anyone as a student. Armed with that, I meekly made my way to the school one weekend and knocked on the door. There were no classes in session, and Jimmy answered and politely invited me inside, after I explained that it was my desire to train with him. Jimmy inquired about any previous training I might have had in the martial arts, while simultaneously explaining that he felt it was much easier to train someone without any experience, because it was hard to undo the classical or traditional foundation that had already been set. It was pretty obvious that Jimmy had a tremendous disdain for classical gung fu via Bruce. Well, at the risk of being rejected as a potential student, I just played dumb and told him that I boxed a little bit. Without much fanfare, I was accepted, and the rest is history.

What were your thoughts towards the system of martial art that they taught?
GC: When answering this question, it is critical that you take into account the historical context or time period in which I trained under Jimmy (James Lee). During the late 60s and early 70s, martial arts were very much rooted and taught in traditional methods and philosophy. Cross training in other systems was discouraged, and absolute loyalty to one style or method was the norm.

With that in mind, here comes Bruce, who is the antithesis of all that. JKD training, therefore, was radical for that time period. I loved it. It suited me just fine. I really liked the non-classical approach, the looseness and fluidity of movement, the directness and simplicity/economy of movement.

When did you start training there, and how old were you?
GC: That was in 1969 and I was 16 years old.

Who can you recall being your fellow students?
GC: There was probably a core group of a dozen students I trained with consistently until Jimmy passed away. There was Howard Williams, his step-dad Richard Carney, Dave Cox, Professor Stan Piasik, Greglon Lee (Jimmy's son), Curtis Yee, just to name a few. Howard was probably like the Mike Tyson of the Oakland school. His power earned him notoriety. Punching, kicking, it didn't matter. He would flat knock the hell out of you. Jimmy's kicking dummy was a very heavy piece of equipment. Howard was one of only three guys I saw who could actually lift the thing off the ground with a sidekick.
Dave Cox was pretty tough too. He had formal training in other systems before JKD, and it showed (in a positive aspect). His movements were very precise; he was fast, strong and very tenacious. Greglon was deceptively strong. I hated being on the receiving end of his punches when we trained, especially since we never wore or used padding. Curtis Yee was real good too. This guy was six-foot one-inch tall and weighed a good 250 lbs., but he could float like a butterfly and do some damage. He was a very good buddy of mine, and we went all over the place sparring guys from other styles. Curtis loved doing that sort of thing. All these guys could flat out fight.

What were classes like under Bruce and under Jimmy?
GC: Well, let me first clear up some misinformation. All of my instruction in JKD at the Oakland school was under Jimmy. I never trained under Bruce. There were a bunch of guys at the Oakland school who I trained with. Some of the more senior students trained under Bruce, like Howard Williams and Dave Cox.

Classes were conducted in a non-traditional approach. The best way to describe it is for me to have you imagine a bunch of guys filing in and out of a factory wearing their hard hats, coveralls, and carrying lunch pails. This was very much a "blue-collar" atmosphere. No fancy frills and laces, just a bunch of raw, innovative equipment, and a bunch of blue-collar guys getting down to business. Come to think of it, a bunch of guys actually wore work boots while they trained to develop their kicking. Really, the only thing traditional about our training was a formal bow at the beginning and end of class.

Talk about an informal, non-traditional approach. On most occasion, Jimmy would train us while wearing a tank top that would show off his impressive physique, honed by years of body-building and weight-lifting. But it would come as no surprise if Jimmy showed up to train us in a pair of dress slacks, wing-tipped shoes and button-down dress shirt.

Describe a typical training session.
GC: Our training essentially revolved around the equipment, practicing techniques and drills against each other, and controlled sparring. You have to remember, we had no pads or padding back in those days, so our controlled sparring was much like all out sparring because we often got banged up pretty good. We would rotate around until everyone practiced or sparred against everyone else, so that the student had an appreciation for going up against a wide variety of opponents.

Of course, everyone knows that the Wong Jack Man fight happened while Bruce was in Oakland. What did you hear about this, and can you remember any other similar events?
GC: Well, the version I heard from Jimmy is pretty much consistent with the version I've read in accounts from Linda. Jimmy took particular delight in telling that story. He really got off on it because he had such a disdain for the classical gung fu guys. You see, Jimmy spent years training in classical gung fu, and he felt, after having met and trained with Bruce, that he'd wasted precious years learning sets and forms and not learning how to fight. Now, this is not me talking. This came out of Jimmy's mouth. He wished he'd met Bruce when he was much younger. But you know what? If Jimmy had been much younger, he would have been much like a gunslinger looking to take on anybody.
Actually, Jimmy did have an episode of sorts while I was training there. There was a Tai Chi master from Oakland who heard about Jimmy's school, and he came to visit. They talked, and one thing led to another, and the Tai Chi guy wanted to engage Jimmy in some chi sao. Jimmy obliged, and at some point lost his temper, and wound up blasting this guy out of his garage onto the driveway. You had to know Jimmy to begin to speculate how this thing ended up this way.
Jimmy was really a good guy, but he was a tough guy also, who had little patience for whatever he deemed nonsense. I could easily see Jimmy thinking to himself, "Enough of this chi-sao. You want to fight? Let's fight!" Then, boom!

By this time, Bruce had left for L.A. How often did he return back to Oakland to update school?
GC: When I trained at Jimmy's, Bruce's visits, to my knowledge, were getting to be infrequent due to his rising career in films. When he did visit, again to my knowledge, they were more social than anything else. I don't believe he had a group of "special" students that he would train during his visits in that time period.

How often did Bruce’s students from Seattle or L.A. visit?
GC: I was never aware of any fellow JKD students visiting from L.A. or Seattle. Of course, I'm not saying they didn't visit. I just personally never saw them.

When Bruce moved to LA, did the curriculum change at all?
GC: Bruce was already in L.A. when I began training, so I couldn't really tell you the difference firsthand, at least not from an Oakland perspective. I can say, however, that JKD evolved in Oakland with less emphasis on classical aspects of Wing Chun, like practicing sil lum tau, and more emphasis on spontaneity, fluidity in movement, etc.

There is much debate as to what the system taught at Oakland was called. What is your understanding?
GC: Debate? Really? When I was there, from beginning to end, it was JEET KUNE DO. Flat out. No ifs, ands or buts.

A lot of people dismiss chi sao (sticking hands) as being unimportant in JKD. Did Jimmy teach it, and if so, how was it looked upon?
GC: Yes, we practiced chi sao. It's somewhat ironic that we did, since JKD emphasized the non-classical. In my estimation, the chi sao we practiced in Oakland was part of the evolutionary phase of JKD, in the sense that I think Bruce and Jimmy were in the process of phasing it out of our training.

What is it about JKD that you feel makes it special?
GC: JKD was the beginning of a martial arts metamorphosis. You see the results of it today, both good and bad. The good is that cross training is now accepted and frequently practiced. People are not afraid to explore to find themselves rather than paying homage and dedicating their martial arts lives to a singular method or way. Folks want to find what works for them, rather than trying to make something fit that doesn't suit them. The downside is that everybody and his brother has come up with some new hybrid system, and although some are legit, many aren’t, and it's the innocent public that often has to find out the hard way. Now, let me backtrack a bit and make myself clear on this: I have nothing against traditionalism and the classical martial arts. Honestly, for some people, there is a lot of value in traditional martial arts, the classical martial arts, etc. Whatever floats your boat, that's great. If it works for you, that's great. Like Bruce would have said, do your thing.

Have you ever had occasion to use your JKD?
GC: In real life situations? Well, yes. On one occasion, I interrupted a guy trying to mug my pregnant wife. The other situation occurred in a professional capacity when I was attacked while on duty by a mentally deranged individual. There really isn't much to tell. Both guys were down-and-out pretty quickly, but that's probably more a reflection on their lack of formidability than anything else.

When did you leave Jimmy's class, and was there a reason?
GC: I trained with Jimmy until he passed away, literally. I remember visiting Jimmy just while he was recovering from cancer surgery. I was walking up the driveway to his home, which led to the famous garage, and I could hear the whirl of someone skipping rope. To my astonishment, it was Jimmy. I couldn't believe his will to fight this ailment and to get back in shape. He put me through the paces right then and there, working out on the training equipment. Sadly, Jimmy didn't last long after that. One of the saddest days in my life was being a pallbearer for Jimmy, and laying him to rest.

How did your martial arts develop after your time at the Oakland school?
GC: As life would have it, the core group that continued to train after Jimmy's passing would eventually go their separate ways, as careers and life changes took us in different directions. Among the JKD folks I continued to train with after Jimmy's passing were Howard, Curtis Yee, Jimmy Dong, Ron Kinnegawa and Ed Yee. For years, my interest in the martial arts lay dormant, until I had yet another golden opportunity, and that was to train under Escrima Master Sonny Umpad. Think about it; how lucky can a martial arts guy be? To start off with the great Al Dacascos, to continue the journey with James Lee and the Oakland JKD kwoon, and then top it off with Sonny Umpad. I couldn't have scripted it better myself.

What is your involvement with the martial arts now?
GC: For most martial artists, once the arts get into your blood, it stays. For us as individuals, that varies from one degree to another. For me, I'll never turn the switch off, and I'll always be in touch or in tune with what's going on. I still train, work with my son on his skills, keep in touch with Oakland JKD folks. As far as doing something more, I really can't commit until I pull the plug from my law enforcement career, which will be in just a couple of years. After that, I'll see where life takes me. I do intend to write a book on my Oakland experiences, for sure; to give those interested a flavor of the Oakland experience, at least from my perspective.

Looking back, what do you see as being the key to what made Bruce and Jimmy special?
GC: Bruce was a visionary who started a cultural revolution in the martial arts. What Bruce started, with JKD, would change the face of martial arts forever. He had the vision to develop something, the courage to put it out there, and the skills to back it up. Jimmy Lee was critical in Bruce's development of JKD, as he would be an original disciple of Bruce's teachings. Bruce couldn't have picked a better guy to head up the Oakland school. Like the city itself, Jimmy was rough, tough, no nonsense. But there was a charm and personality in there as well. Believe me, those were magical, wondrous times in Oakland. To this day, I still shake my head in disbelief that I had the golden opportunity to have trained there.

Did you stay in contact with Bruce or any of your fellow students?
GC: By then, Bruce was blowing up and on fire as a martial arts superstar. A core group of Oakland JKD guys continued to train together for some time after Jimmy's passing.

You were at the 1997 nucleus in San Francisco. What are your recollections of that event?
GC: I'll never forget it. So many people there to pay homage to Bruce. The best part, for me, was to be able to meet Linda and many of JKD's pioneers, along with first and second-generation students like you. There was such a turnout, with little room to train. Ultimately, however, I don't think people minded so much. Just being there was good enough. It was truly a happening.

Bruce Lee, Jeet Kune Do, james demile, jeet kune do, jkd, doug palmer, jim demile, bruce lee, skip ellsworth, bob bremer, howard williams, taky kimura, jesse glover, leo fong, james lee jun fan gung fu, richard bustillo, jerry poteet, joe cowles, dan inosanto