Bruce Lee Historian, Paul Bax:
The
JKD Oracle?
Interview Conducted by John Overall (The Bruce Lee Review)
for Jade Screen Magazine
Paul Bax has
interacted with and interviewed many of Bruce Lee's
original students and unearthed a wealth of information,
personal and technical. Here he discusses his book,
Disciples of the Dragon: Reflections from the students of
Bruce Lee.
What sparked your interest in Bruce Lee?
Bax:
The year was 1983 and I was visiting a former girlfriend’s
(Melissa) house with a friend and the movie, The Chinese
Connection came on. I had already heard of Bruce Lee but
could never figure out what all the hype was about. This
movie changed all that. I was on the path of discovering
everything I possibly could about the late Bruce Lee and
his art of Jeet Kune Do (and for you voyeurs, nothing
happened with the ex-girlfriend). I was currently a student
of Tae Kwon Do under the late Charles Roth. I had no doubt
Sensei Roth was a tough man (especially when he cupped both
his hands and slapped my ears when I would not let go of a
grab) but as with most TKD classes, we were all just
following the motions and basically were being trained as
“wanna be killers”. When you stick 30 people on a
basketball court and teach forms with occasional sparring,
you can’t expect much. Why was it though that Sensei Roth
had such a deep disdain for Bruce Lee? I would ask
questions and the answers were blunt and normally ended up
with the same answer, “You cannot find a school anywhere
that will teach you Bruce Lee’s art!” Hmm. So, I started
delving deeper into whatever information was available
about Lee’s art, which inevitably started with books and
magazines. Later, I followed that up with every video
release available but more importantly, seminar videos of
various JKD people teaching the art.
Was
your training at this point merely a mix and match of
martial arts or were you aware of your instructor’s intent
to relay JKD/Concepts? Or did this come from the
re-emergence of ‘original JKD’
in the
media?
Bax: Remember, I was training in Okinawa-Te at the time,
which is what I earned my Black Belt in. At the time, all
anyone really knew about JKD was what was fed: JKD
Concepts. I noticed a lot of discrepancies as to what was
originally portrayed as JKD while Lee was alive and shortly
after his death and then the information changed shortly
afterwards. So while we followed what most thought was JKD
at the time, in the back of our minds we had this six sense
that there was something more. Or should I say less?
Original JKD hit the scene in the form of videos’ from
Poteet, Davis and several others. My instructor was more of
a coach/trainer. Everything was informal working out at his
house or in parks or at our normal school (the Okinawa-Te
school) during “open practice”. A lot of the times I would
get a video and I would pass it on to and he would break it
down. Of course it’s always better to experience things in
person rather then just watching. Ironically, I acquired a
lot of rare video back then of guys like Paul De’Thouars
doing private seminars that probably a lot of Silat guys
would die for. This is not the same stuff you would buy out
of a magazine. Being in Missouri, we did not have a lot of
JKD choices although the California Martial Arts Academy
had a school here at one time but of course it was the JKD
Concepts crowd. All such schools in Missouri have closed
down altogether (as far as I know). In essence, with “The
Tao Of Jeet Kune Do” in our hands, common sense, and
insights from other Lee students other then the professed
“elders” of JKD, we felt we had a grasp on what JKD as Lee
taught the art really was. By no means did we have all the
answers though. We never may.
What's your background in martial arts
training?
Bax: I began training in Tae Kwon Do in 1982 and stuck with
it until I was tired of doing katas’ in a basketball court.
I did enjoy the sparring though. After that I pretty much
did my own thing until I heard rave reviews about an
Okinawa-Te instructor so I began training with him in 1986.
The school was sort of a hub for martial artist from
different styles so we had a lot of different guys from
different arts stopping in and that is where I met my
friend and instructor, Kym Huie. Kym had fought full
contact and was a bouncer most of his life so he had a
wonderful grasp on what worked in the street and he always
was learning from whatever source that he could. He was a
fan of the concepts approach and quite frankly, that is all
there really was from what I remember back then until
certain guys started coming out in magazines with the
underground term, 'Original Jeet Kune Do'. But, he and I
had both read The Tao Of Jeet Kune Do so we had a grasp on
what Lee was into while alive but were somewhat confused as
to what people were proposing JKD was, i.e. JKD
Concepts.
You mentioned the Tao of Jeet Kune Do there, a misnomer in
itself, surely? In my time as a fan, this book has been
derided for being less than representative of what Bruce
Lee was doing, and having been published posthumously, fell
foul of the fact that it's 'author' was deceased. Having
finite experience in martial arts I was able to appreciate
elements of the book but I didn't get a broader sense of
its direction and it really came across as a hodgepodge of
private notes that might never have been published in this
format had Bruce Lee lived, even attracting litigious
attention in some quarters for misattribution of quotes and
diagrams that Bruce Lee found interest in. How can a 'way'
be applied to a man's vision that supposedly has 'no way'?
Bax:
Ah, there’s that double-edged sword of JKD rearing its ugly
head again: “way of no way”; “circle of no circumference”;
“limitation without limitation”. I believe Bruce Lee was
the ultimate salesman for a product that he really never
intended to fully sell…at least as a martial art. Lee once
told Taky Kimura that he travelled all the way across town
to drink root beer because the one particular store served
the drink in a frosty mug. Sometimes I feel that Lee was
constantly trying to give his personal martial art that
“frosty mug” that other arts lacked or appeared to lack.
Bruce Lee was to JKD what David Lee Roth was to Van Halen.
He was the salesman; the star that made JKD shine. After he
died we were left with a lot of humble students with no
real leadership skills. Forgive me, I am babbling. How can
a “way” be applied to a man’s vision that supposedly has no
“way”? I believe that there is an art to JKD but that art
is based upon a lot of scientific principles that coincide
with the structure of the human body and how best to make
that body perform. Lee preferred certain ways to do things
based on what he felt was the simplest yet effective way to
them. Remember, Lee also called his art, “Scientific
Street-Fighting.” Of course Lee’s preferred method may not
always work for the average individual. However, if someone
trained as hard as Lee and studied some of the principles
behind what he professed, one surely would improve one’s
self as opposed to simply venturing out to become a fighter
without prior knowledge of what Lee had studied and
professed. I am not claiming to have a higher knowledge of
how exactly JKD should work within one’s body to create a
superior way of fighting. I am merely expressing an opinion
based on my own research and from my observations of what
Bruce Lee has said in interviews and wrote in his notes.
Is your new book a higher profile, updated edition of your
first book?
Bax: Yes, the new book has many new interviews with Lee's
students that include, James DeMile, Pat Strong, Steve
Golden, Leo Fong, Richard Bustillo, Joe Lewis, Gary Dill
(student of James Lee) and Bob Bremer.
How
does it differ, what was the catalyst that made you want to
interview so many of Bruce Lee's
students?
Bax: Well, first of all I feel my interviewing skills are
much better then they were before. I have matured a lot in
my questions and insights and I basically am asking more
intelligent questions then I used to. Years ago, there was
a certain set of myths that I wanted debunked and I went in
that direction. All of the interviews before were mainly
done over the phone. Now with e-mail, I can be much more
thorough and bounce questions off of their answers which
has produced some huge interviews. The newer ones are much
more well-rounded and in my opinion, my best work ever. In
particular, the Joe Lewis interview really got inside his
head and revealed a lot of things that I feel a lot of
people wanted to know about. And then there are interviews
with people whom you just don't hear enough about like Leo
Fong and Bob Bremer. What makes me want to interview so
many of Lee's students is the fact that like most fans, I
am always looking for that story that we have never heard
before and want other fans and practitioners to share in
the new insights.
How did you come to write for the Bruce Lee's estate's Jun
Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus magazine, and how is your
relationship with the estate these days?
Bax:
That is all sort of fuzzy but it was mostly from my
friendship with John Little. John was my way in. He would
call me from time to time and ask me to do an interview
with so and so or write an article on a topic he wanted
something on and I stepped in and did it. My relationship
with the Estate is somewhat on a hiatus because we have
basically lost touch. Linda used to send me Xmas cards
every year (coming to an ebay auction near you) and then
they just sort of dropped off. When the Nucleus was
crumbling I was led to believe that it was out of greed but
now that the smoke has cleared, I am not so sure. They may
only have had the best intentions of Lee in mind. I am open
to discussion if they are looking to try and revive the
popularity of Bruce and would consider me to be a part of
the 'resurrection'.
Do you think that the post-Bruce Lee interpretation of Jeet
Kune Do has made it the very antithesis of what he
intended: liberation?
Bax: The confusing part of all this is the words that Bruce
Lee left behind himself. In one sentence he talks about
liberation but then you have letters to former students
about not combining 'X' (JKD) with 'Y' (insert art of
choice but in this case, Kenpo) so you have to wonder what
direction Lee was really going in. The bottom-line is the
fact that Lee would probably take from any art that he felt
offered something useful but in reality, how much is really
left after so many thousands of years of creating moves?
That's why he talked about not having new styles, etc. As
long as the body has the same four limbs as it normally
has, then the emphasis shoots back towards improving the
body and mechanics of how to make the moves more effective.
Simplicity was always his goal. I feel in a lot of ways
Bruce Lee was a proud man. He wanted to create something
that would just totally devour other arts but not everyone
has the dedication that he had to build the fighting
machine that he was, not to mention the fact that Lee had
no intention of ever letting any one he trained catch up to
his level so how much was he really willing to give
out?
Let’s talk about the confusion surrounding Jeet Kune Do;
are you able to clarify what this is and where this
confusion comes from? I hear this and that about 'original'
JKD, JKD Concepts and more recently, Jun Fan Gung Fu, what
does all this mean for martial arts practitioners and also
for non-combatants alike, trying to get a grip on what
Bruce Lee's art is about?
Bax: I think the confusion comes from the different
perspectives from the various students that Bruce Lee
taught over the years. While they all may have gotten
a piece of the puzzle, often these particular students feel
that their piece is better then anyone else's. Originally,
people who followed JKD had only one route to follow and
that was the path of Dan Inosanto. This particular
path involved studying whatever art Danny was interested in
at the time. Even his top student, Chris Kent once
commented in Inside Karate, "Dan has shifted almost totally
in the direction of Southeast Asian martial arts- Muay
Thai, Silat, Kali". Kent went on to say, "What I see
happening now is a trend where, when the students see that
Dan happens to be in love with a particular art and a given
point in time, they go, 'Oh wow! That's for me!
That's all I want to do is practice this one art!' That's
okay, but that’s not Jeet Kune Do." So there you have
a guy that was in Dan's backyard from the early 70's saying
what I have been since 1993. The public sees what Dan
Inosanto is doing and automatically thinks that is what
Bruce Lee did or that is the path to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune
Do. I believe that is the path to Jeet Kune Do
Concepts, but not the true art of Jeet Kune Do as Lee
passed it on to private students such as Ted Wong and Herb
Jackson before his death. Mr. Kent also clarified the
reason for the confusion by stating, "In the beginning,
when we were training, we were learning Jeet Kune Do.
Not Jun Fan, not Jeet Kune Do concepts, (but) Jeet Kune
Do. This is the way it was when I trained in the
backyard and later at the Torrence School. Jun Fan
Gung Fu is actually the forerunner of Jeet Kune Do.
However, there was an unwritten code that Bruce's art was
not to be prostituted. So when we started teaching,
we used the term, "Jun Fan" to avoid capitalizing on the
Jeet Kune Do name. Our certificates all say "Jun Fan"
on them." And then you have Tim Tackett admitting
that before the first JKD seminar ever conducted, that Dan
Inosanto told both he and Larry Hartsell that the two of
them never made any promises to Bruce Lee about teaching
JKD but he (Danny) did, therefore he was not going to teach
JKD but they could. That is when Danny started
slicing up JKD into pieces that were not always
there. For instance, Dan decided that Larry Hartsell
should take the route of teaching grappling as a separate
component of JKD and in reality, Bruce Lee himself did not
teach hardly any grappling to his students. While Lee
may have had a lot of respect for different grappling arts,
many feel that due to his size and weight that the ground
was the last place that he wanted to be. While I am
sure he was quite competent on the ground, Lee was a
striker and could deliver a knockout blow with any of his
hands or feet. And then, Danny suggested that Tim
Tackett teach trapping at the seminar. According to
Ted Wong and several others, trapping and chi sao was not
the focus that it once was in Lee's art. Even Taky
Kimura once said that Lee called him to say, "Chi sao is
out". Of course the question is: what does one have
to lose in learning the earlier principles of Lee's
development. And then the question is, do you
reinvent the wheel so you know the process the founders
went through or do you take the wheel as it was before its
final innovation and go from there. And that of course, is
a matter of opinion...and where a lot of the controversy
starts.
To further cause confusion, we have had a new twist on the
whole JKD scene with the entry of Pat Strong. Strong
has reintroduced the Wing Chun principles that many feel do
not fit into the boxing/fencing structure that made up JKD
at the time of his death. Other second generation
guys like Lamar Davis II, also are big on the earlier
teachings of Bruce Lee so there is quite a movement to
trace all of Lee's ways of training through out his short
but innovative career as a martial
artist.
As far as what it means to anyone involved in JKD, they
just have to decide what path they want to take and respect
the paths that they choose not to take. In the end,
the individual will decide what works and what will not
work.
Your discussion forum is arguably the most proactive,
intelligent and thought-provoking in the Bruce Lee 'scene',
yet remains strangely detached from the conventional fan
base driven by footage, photos and product. Why do you feel
this is?
Bax: That's a good question. I think a lot of guys are
secretly fans but too often the label of 'groupie' is
bestowed upon someone simply because they enjoy collecting
the various items for sale out there. Personally, I know I
cannot take the items with me so I am trying to simplify my
life and not add anything more to what I already have but
collecting can be a rewarding experience and eventually a
profitable one if the market is right. I personally know of
students of Lee's students who are avid collectors but keep
it to themselves. Besides, I have added a link back to
Bruce Lee Review to make up for our lack of emphasis in
that area!
You appear to be enamoured by the socio-political angle of
Jeet Kune Do and mixed martial arts, is this an extension
to your training or your primary interest and
why?
Bax: It all goes back to my roots in JKD. When I first
started reading about the art I worked in a copy-center. I
had the privelage of copying what I wanted, when I wanted.
My friends had been collecting magazines since the early
seventies so I was able to see what was being said about
JKD from the beginning. In the mid-eighties I started to
see a shift in what was originally being stated and that
got my mind going and before you know it I was interviewing
Lee's students and hearing different sides of the coin.
Enter Rush Limbaugh. I was always a fan of the talk show
host and his savvy for dissecting what was really going on
behind the scenes and that sort of rolled over to the JKD
world. Just as Bill Clinton has gotten away with a lot of
lies over the years, several JKD people have also gotten
away with a lot of half-truths and falsehoods. I set my
course to be the "truth meter" in JKD. I was actually
retired from the political aspects at one point...but just
when you think your out ...they suck you back in! My next
book, The Death of Jeet Kune Do: In Memory of a Once Fluid
Martial Art should cover nearly every JKD flame war.
Something tells me I will have no friends once that book
comes out. Skip Ellsworth in the Philippines, if you are
reading this - leave the light on for me. And make sure she
is 18 and at least 5'4. I will break the news to the wife
before I leave: "Honey, everyone wants me dead and it's in
your best interest that I leave so you are not in danger.
No, I am not going to live with Skip. Bye. Oh, I almost
forgot my book, 'How to live in the Philippines for under
$2.00 a day'.
While we’re courting controversy, you seem to have a thing
about Bruce Lee’s senior instructor; what are your thoughts
on Dan Inosanto? Hasn't he taken what Bruce Lee taught him
and 'added what is uniquely his own', the very essence of
Jeet Kune Do in itself?
Bax: That is true. Dan Inosanto has added a lot over the
years. My main concern with Mr. Inosanto is his lack of
control over his students and how they “ran away” with JKD
in the 80’s and professed a lot of things that he knows are
untrue. Here is a man who claims to be his sole heir yet he
tells his students that while he made a promise not to
promote Jeet Kune Do that they did not make the same
promise therefore they are not governed by the same
promise. Wow, that’s the guy who I want to entrust my art
to! This is the same Dan Inosanto who once wrote, "One
cannot learn the principle roots of Jeet Kune do through
the accumulation of many different styles for that would be
like a singer trying to improve his voice by accumulating
many songs. Rather it is by understanding the roots of the
problem (page 145 of his book quoted from 1979)". So what
changed in the mind of Dan Inosanto when he made that
statement? Did he just evolve in his thinking or was he
looking for a way to give JKD a broader range of techniques
and philosophies to teach? In one of Bruce Lee’s last
conversations with Dan Lee, Bruce made the comment that
something was bugging Danny. You have to wonder exactly
what was bugging him. Simplicity is indeed, a hard
principle to convey.
It's documented that Bruce Lee closed his schools, all but
ceased teaching and told his instructors to stop what they
were doing towards the end of his life. Do you think that
he ultimately regretted labelling his art? What is it that
JKD practitioners are actually teaching and learning, as
each original student was moulded in a way that would
better enable them to express themselves through martial
art? Are they passing on their personal expression and
therefore diluting Bruce Lee's tailoring of his art to
their attributes? As Bruce Lee's character states in
Longstreet, "... without system, without method, what's to
teach?".
Bax: Jesus Christ…I feel like I am on “JKD Hardball”. All
good questions and I am sure there are perfectly great
answers but in the meantime you will have to settle for my
mine. True, Lee closed all his schools but he also told his
instructors to take a few dedicated students to the
backyard and continue training them. It has been documented
that Lee did regret labelling his martial art but he never
planned to die and if he hadn’t died who knows how the art
could have further been explained and discussed BY him
rather then others who may not have totally grasped what he
was saying. As Lee said, “Man is more important then any
martial art” or something to that effect. The problem is,
how much of that was Lee just trying to copy Krishnamurti
and making his art mirror a philosophy rather then what it
really was…a martial arts system? I have had my
disagreements with James Bishop but his book, Dynamic
Becoming really explores where Lee took his philosophy from
and applied to his art to make that “frosty mug” that so
many arts clamour for. My advice to JKD practitioners:
learn Wing Chun. See the roots of JKD. Explore boxing and
fencing to see the principles that they offer. Learn some
basic kicks with no frills. Find an instructor who was
under Lee towards the end of his evolution and ask him to
train you just as Bruce Lee trained him. Will you find JKD
this way? I don’t know. But in my opinion, this is the
route to take if you have the means to do so. Lee did teach
his student in the show Long Street. We could also ask,
“Without system, without method, what’s to practice?” yet
practice is something Lee did do to the end of his
life.